Criticism is a part of life. No one likes being criticised, but it happens and generally, we learn from it. Maybe the soup was too salty, or your pitch not quite good enough, or the campaign you’re working on got knocked back. Maybe you got the wrong socks out from the drawer, or sent the wrong letter to a client. Needless to say, criticism is going to happen.
In real life, it stings a bit, but we usually get over it and get better at what we’re doing.
The thing is, critics aren’t evil people hating monsters and we don’t tend to believe that they are when they show up in real life. Sure, we might fantasise a bit about a voodoo doll full of pins, but when the sting wears off, we’re left with the constructive bits that we can learn from.
So, why is it that as soon as someone online pops up and is even the slightest bit critical of anything, everyone jumps on them and declares them a hater and a troll and rabble rabble rabble rabble.
It’s not healthy to disallow criticism.
Yes, there is a fine line between critical and bitchy and some people walk that line and fall on both sides occasionally, but I can’t see why criticism is a bad thing.
But it’s funny, this online world of ours, because we don’t criticise. It’s all happy happy joy joy and good for you and god forbid, if we disagree, we do in the most self deploring terms ever, with apologies peppered through it. Why should I apologise for disagreeing with someone, if I’m doing it in a respectful manner? Why do I feel the need to start the sentences with “I’m sorry, but…” before making my own point.
It’s getting a bit ridiculous.
I’ve found myself purposely staying silent over issues simply because I didn’t want to rock the boat. And maybe that’s fine, but not rocking the boat can be a bad thing too.
Why shouldn’t I say that I’m unhappy about the Bloggers Manifesto because it sounds scarily like a post of mine on Ethics and Integrity I wrote before the Aussie Bloggers Conference? What scares me so much about disagreeing, that I would purposely stay silent, for fear of the waves?
Yes, I’ve had the emails telling me that the Manifesto was created long before my post went live and that I’m making too much of things – but I’ve also seen the forum post saying that the manifesto was rewritten and simplified from the original document, after the conference, weeks after my post was written and received well within the community (and yes, I know who read it, my statcounter has labelled IP’s). I don’t think that the original writer was using my post as inspiration, but when it was rewritten, by someone else, that’s when it changed into something very similar to what I’d written.
So why do I feel like I should say nothing?
Criticism isn’t going to tear a community apart, not when there are so many bloggers and this construct of community is so broad and encompasses so many things. Criticism is going to make us look at our practices and work out what works best and what doesn’t work at all.
And you know what? Sometimes criticism hurts and we don’t like it.
Not liking something doesn’t mean that there isn’t a place for it.
Then you of course get mob mentality, getting screamed down because you dare say something against someone.
I personally don’t take criticism well. I don’t take praise well either. I’d rather hide in a corner, but if I dare put myself out there I have to be willing to accept it.
The mob mentality is hard, isn’t it? I’ve worked hard here to try and avoid any kind of mob mentality in my space, but it definitely comes out when you see people saying that Dooce sucks, and all of her fans sort it out.
I have been waiting for this post. As usual I am proud of you for standing up and pointing out the “bleeding obvious” As an artist criticism is a part of my arts practice. It is how I learn. If my peers aren’t willing to stand up and tell me what they think is wrong with my latest series of work how on earth am I expected to get better?
As for the bloggers manifesto you know exactly what I think about that hypocritical piece of simplistic crap. If [redacted] I might have just looked at it and been able to ignore it for the fluff piece it is. As I said in my post, I like my manifestos to have a little more substance, to be a little heavier in weight, I like a manifesto that makes me think. My personal favourite is A Humanist Manifesto.
People who like power, whether it is in politics, the workforce or the blogosphere tend to surround themselves with yes men and sycophants.
I am so proud that I raised my children to fall squarely outside that category of blind and slavish obsequiousness.
I think artists do better at criticism than bloggers.
No I don’t think Artists do better at criticism honey, I just think that when you do your thinking in public, whether that is as an artist, blogger, writer, commentator etc. You need to develop a thick skin and quickly, otherwise you will never get anywhere.
I love you two.
It saddens me that an anonymous commenter can come into a conversation and squeal about defamation and in order to protect my daughter I allow part of my comment to be redacted.
I would like to state clearly and for the record that if I wanted to hurt some little darlings ever so sensitive feelings I would do it on my blog and not in the comment section of my daughters blog.
Clearly I’m coming to this late, I wondered what had been redacted, I thought you might have sworn but couldn’t think of a word that fit in that context 😆
I agree with you about the thick skin. I also think that artists and writers in other genres are more used to criticism. As part of a romance writing community before you were allowed to participate in the critic circle you were given instruction on how to take criticism gracefully rather than taking it as a personal affront.
If we feel hurt we should be able to speak up.
Strange isn’t it, we seem to have become trained not to speak up in criticism and not to accept compliments for our achievements. Very odd society we are becoming.
I think it is really biazzare, we tend to push down our own feelings for fear of upsetting with criticism or upsetting with being happy for good work done.
People are weird.
I don’t take criticism well either – even when I know it’s good advice. At first, I take everything too personally. And even though I know that, I can’t really change it. But I agree, there is nowhere near enough disagreement. For example, when I saw Mia Freedman on tv in an ad for toys where she was playing with young children I automatically thought how ridiculous it was because she has a whole post about how she hates playing with her children. But I’d never say anything like that. I’m pretty sure I’d get lynched.
I hadn’t seen that Mia Freedman ad, but yes, wow, seems a bit strange!
No doubt she got paid A LOT. Anyone can like anything if they get paid enough.
Zoey – I had that exact same thought.
I don’t know the backstory so I could be completely out of line here, but I see two points.
Firstly, what you have here is not criticism, it’s an accusation. Saying someone’s soup is too salty is completely different to saying they’ve used a tin. I definitely agree criticism is actually a good thing and in their place accusations are as well, but they are different.
Secondly, the online venue is different to real life because it is mostly permanent and public. If you are saying someone’s soup is too salty you don’t do that in a letter to hundreds of their friends and colleagues. I have been taught many times and seen the way it works that things should be solved at the lowest possible level, which generally means talking privately. Not on Twitter and not on blogs. I may be the only blogger in Australia who doesn’t know the steps you’ve taken on this, but it isn’t mentioned in your post. If you’ve tried to resolve it privately and got nothing then it’s good to take it public and good on you for being brave enough. But it’s a good principal to give people a chance to think privately.
It wasn’t meant an as accusation, really, I was just wanting to explore my thoughts surrounding WHY I didn’t want to say anything openly about the manifesto and why I was feeling the pressure to stay silent about it.
Online, yes, definitely different to IRL regarding criticism, but I still think that criticism gets slammed at ‘hating’ or ‘trolling’ or ‘bitchiness’ when it isn’t any of those things.
Veronica – just a thought…but maybe the reason you felt uncomfortable about saying anything publicly about this, is because your instincts were trying to tell you this is a subject best discussed privately.
I know that, in the past, I’ve wanted to write/criticize about something publicly – there is absolutely nothing wrong with expressing your opinion – but I’ve held back because my gut tells me it’s something best left unsaid.
To be honest, I agree this sounds more like an accusation than a criticism – but I also don’t know the full story behind all this.
There are very few people who intentionally try to use others work or try to rock the boat. Just remember that.
I did have quite a few conversations about this privately and my issue with saying something was because of the peer pressure to stay silent, the “culture of silence” that we seem to exist in sometimes.
My gut instinct was immediately to talk about it, but that is the way I work, I like to draw issues out into the open and discuss them, to see what I can learn from the issue itself and from the opinions of my readers.
Also, I think that occasional boat rocking is good for people, to make us think about things and work out why we believe what we believe. Look at Darwin’s Theory of Evolution: It certainly wasn’t/isn’t a popular theory, but it’s something we need to talk about and learn from.
I think I will emphatically disagree with your final sentence Jodie, respectfully of course. There are lots of people who intentionally try to use others work and claim it as their own. Some do it publicly, some do it privately.
I don’t think Veronica’s post comes across as accusatory, I read her post as questioning why she felt that she was unable to talk about certain things, the bloggers manifesto only being one of them.
Now my original comment on this post could certainly be construed as an accusation of sorts as well as an open criticism of the quality of the writing and the content of said manifesto.
oops. Forgot to subscribe to comments. Hi sweety, *waves*
I’m in the same boat as Kim. After being at Art School for four years, I learned to take criticism. I used to be a hater of people who criticised. Why are they being mean to me? Why cant they just keep their opinions to themselves?
Now I’m more confident to put myself out there and take the good with the bad because I learned how to pick out the constructive bits and put them back into myself to improve myself.
That being said, some people do not take criticism well AT ALL. I know it’s hard when you don’t want to rock the boat…but people need to hear other opinions that aren’t their own!
Also in the blogosphere, I think it’s hard because blogs are very personal, sometimes like a journal and that’s a hard thing to step into and criticise…if it was a ‘public’ sharing space it would be easier.
Art school sounds like it works wonders for tough skin!
I don’t know the backstory either, I hadn’t seen your original post and therefore can’t ‘pick a side’, not that you’re asking for that (will head over and ahve a look after the school run), but I can see how that would be upsetting.
You’re right though. It’s hard to walk that fine line between not causing trouble by saying “you know what, I dont’ agree with you a BIT”, and just shutting your mouth and appearing a ‘good sport’ or worse..a yes man.
I’ve erred on either side, truthfully. Sometimes I’ve spoken out and it’s gone down like a tonne of bricks. Other times I’ve said nothing and wished to hell that i had. Still learning, I guess.
I do find that my pet peeve on the internet (especially on forums) is people who mistake disagreement and healthy debate with ‘trolling’, ‘bitchiness’ or ‘being mean’. But then, people in my ‘real’ life do it too. I have trouble holding on to women friends for this reason.
Good post, Veronica.
I’ve erred on either side too and it’s always ALWAYS a learning curve.
It’s hard to decide what to talk about and not online, isn’t it? You know I’m behind you on this one sweety. x
It is hard sometimes.
it’s the same with the notion of judging. Any opposition is seen strictly as judging, ‘don’t you judge me!’ – you’re never allowed to say anything against anyone or anything for fear you’ll be accused of judging.
Not all debate is criticism or judgement. And i think there are ways to say ‘i don’t agree with the manifesto’ without the writers of the manifesto hearing you say ‘your manifesto sucks’. If they choose to hear it that way, not your problem.
Yes, god forbid we be seen as judging.
Blogging has really educated me not to comment judgemental, hurtful or in any form of criticism.
So far, so good… {I think!} Every one walks their own walk of life and all circumstances are different. Encouraging or congratulatory words work wonders. Even though a blog is supposed to be “private”, it is not. You put it out into cyber space for any Tom, Dick or Harry to read and have to suffer the repercussions.
Cheers.
I had written such a long reply here – but when I read it back it was just too long.
So, in summary, yes – I completely agree – in blog land we all have to sugar coat our responses and if we find an image that we don’t like or think is not our cup of tea, we either just don’t comment or go with the flow. Yet in real life, surely we can openly say ‘Nah, I don’t really like that’ without getting trashed.
Oh, and the spider post – you would not believe but there were ELEVEN (yes 11) little buggers in my laundry last night, 3 in the kitchen and 2 in the hall. Must be the weather. Grrrrr
11?! That is a lot of spiders!
And the sugarcoating, I guess I’m not very good at it. Heh.
Like Deb said, I think this is accusation more than criticism.
The manifesto IS a LOT like your article.
But both are like very simplified versions of this http://www.cyberjournalist.net/news/000215.php And many other code of blogging conduct type pieces on the internet. It’s very hard to be completely original today.
In regards to criticism. I don’t tend to comment if I disagree unless it is about something I am passionate about. Like human rights. Other criticism I just keep to myself. I don’t need to stamp my opinion on everything. Especially when it really doesn’t matter.
I have had some criticism on my blog, and I like that sometimes it gives me another viewpoint to consider.
It wasn’t meant to be accusatory, more me working out where my thoughts lie around feeling like I couldn’t speak up about it. The culture of silence that we tend to find ourselves existing in.
I hadn’t seen that article, so thanks heaps for that. It’s a very good one and I agree, it seems we all think alike when it comes to ethics, which is a good thing.
Interesting post Veronica. I agree in that I don’t see a lot of open discussion in the parts of the blogosphere I visit. I think there is room for it, but a lot of people don’t seem to be up for it. Melissa noted something similar at the end of her slutwalk post. I’m guilty of avoiding commenting and of avoiding posting things that might not go down well. No-one likes conflict, but open discussion doesn’t mean open combat.
I like your end sentence, open discussion definitely does not mean open combat. I also like the stuff from Blog With Integrity, about treating others respectfully and attacking ideas, not people.
I don’t like silence. I like constructive criticism. I don’t like accusations or bitchiness, although don’t ask me to define it. What feels like constructive criticism to one, may feel like bitchiness to another. I don’t claim to understand the politics of the blogosphere, but it saddens me that it exists. And I understand that I must learn to navigate it. Just like in any other workplace or community.
I don’t like silence either and I’m unsure of how we get better, if someone doesn’t point out what needs improving on. Blogging is its own little microcosm sometimes and while that can be a good thing, it can also be a bad thing.
I think women are (mostly) natural community builders. Unlike men, we feel a real need to connect with others and keep them on-side as much as possible, to keep the community whole.
Men just don’t really give a rats. So if they disagree, they’ll say so. And usually, they don’t take it personally.
I think we women need to learn to disagree without feeling attacked, without taking it personally. We need to say what we think and then LISTEN to what the other person is saying and think why they’re saying it. It’s a hard skill for many of us to learn.
Also, Veronica, YOU set the tone here. The reason why debate is mostly congenial here is because of YOU. You’re unfailingly polite and thoughtful, even to those who disagree with you, and you’re a good example of what I’ve said above.
I like your comment very much.
And I do try to be polite and thoughtful. I don’t want to attack people, even if I disagree with them.
Hello,
I am the original writer of the Bloggers Manifesto.
I spent months working on the original document. As most of you know I work within the legal sphere and I have easy access to qualified lawyers and also a team of award winning legal journalists to ‘chat’ with at the kitchen.
My original document was completed in the hope that it was to be launched at the conference as a Code of Ethics for AMB.
I had included within the document my suggestion that the CoE needs to be a fluid document, changeable and therefore should reside on a page that can be updated with ease.
I was not part of the AMB conference group.
I was told there was no time to fit the CoE into the conference day.
Afterwards I was contacted to ask if I minded my work being used as a basis for Bloggers Manifesto.
I agreed.
While few of my words remain, the topics are each covered off in a voice that is distinctly that of the BM, not mine, but clearly I tend to write ‘official’ documents in a much more wordy and complex way. That was not suitable for this project. I understand that and don’t have any concerns with my idea ‘topics’ being used.
May I confirm for you that I did not use any information from your blog(s) within my writing.
At no time was your writing referred to within my discussions of the BM or the Code of Ethics.
Please, by all means critise the Bloggers manifesto, its ideas, its design, its wording. But please acknowledge the work was all done without reference to your personal writing.
Regards
Claire
I’m a bit jealous of your easy access to journalists at the kitchen table!
I did say in the post that I didn’t think that your original document bore any resemblance to my post and what you’ve said supports that, especially if the manifesto has been rewritten and edited so heavily from your original words.
It is a shame that so few of your words remain in the current Bloggers Manifesto. From what I have seen of your writing, your Manifesto would have been an interesting document.
I think that for the most part people are able to politely disagree on a topic on a blog. Where I have seen it turn nasty is on a Mia Freedmans blog when people call her out on her double standards and when she gets caught out with incorrect facts etc. Someone will point this out and guarentee, 20 people will jump to her defence, call the commentator a troll, tell them it is Mia’s website which she does out of the goodness of her heart for free (this one always kills me) and if you dont like it then dont read it etc etc.It is like they think she cant defend herself and that if they jump in and protect her they might become her best friend. I dont get the mentality that beacuse you might be on Tv sometimes you are a protected species and you cant be called on anything.
What I am trying to say is that sometimes it is not even worth joining the discussion because if you have a difference of opinion your views are lost in the avalanche of people rushing to her defence and your original comment is not even read properly.
I dont go there anymore, it is too much like a cult and way to frustrating for me.
I much prefer to visit blogs where people can give their opinion and even if not everyone agrees they are still polite and recognise your right to express it. I actually love it when I read a different opinion to my own, how are we ever going to learn new things and see things from another perspective if we only ever listen to people who agree and think the same as us.
Great post!!
I’ve seen that too, on Dooce and Pioneer Woman and other large blogs. The “her website, her rules, she’s running it out of the goodness of her HEART!” always makes me eye rolley.
I always think trolls are defined by the ad hominem nature of their attacks (and the frequency and irrelevancy, I suppose). Vigorous disagreement with the ideas of a post and criticism of them *as ideas* or even the writing style *as a writing style*, or even disputing the parameters within which a blogger blogs, can often be tagged as trolling, but I don’t think it is, really; it’s criticism, sometimes fair, sometimes misguided, but not focused on the irrelevantly and hostiley personal.
To be specific using an example earlier – pointing out that there is an inconsistency between Mia Freedman stating that she dislikes playing with her kids, and an advertisement featuring her doing just that, is criticism – based on a mismatch between what’s written and what’s seen. IMHO, it’s actually a fairly mean-spirited observation, because who among us is 100% consistent all the time? But that’s just me, and it certainly (to me) would not read as trolling.
On the other hand, coming onto Mamma Mia to leave the pithy observation that “Mia is fat LOL!” or some such gem WOULD be trolling, plain and simple. (Obviously this is an extreme example, but you see where I’m going here).
I also think it’s pretty impolite to go into someone else’s space simply to bang your own drum; ranting about an issue that is important *to you* or raving about restrictions on discussion is ill-mannered, and possibly trollish if it goes on long enough. Some progressive spaces are heavily moderated for very good reasons (eg. Shakesville) because if they weren’t, the ire of trolls would make no useful discussion possible (and make the spaces uncomfortable / impossible for many readers, given the nature of the topics progressive blogs tend to cover).
So, alright, I’ve neandered around this long enough, and said very little that’s comprehensible, no doubt 😉 In short:
– I agree with you 100% that criticism and debate are healthy, even if vigorous
– I don’t agree that individual writers or blogs have an obligation to allow unrestricted comment and debate (not that I’m saying that’s what you said, mind!) I think each blog must work out the right balance for its audience and its subject matter. In short, moderation has its place.
– I don’t think you are criticising the BM itself here (I couldn’t find any material that specifically discusses it as a document in your post, although Kim’s comment certainly takes that on). I think you are criticising the PROCESS ie. what you contend is at least partial plagiarism involved in its creation. It may indeed amount to an accusation, as several commenters have observed above – but that doesn’t, ipso facto, make it a bad thing either!
I always like your comments and how they make me think 🙂
This is a tough one. In all honesty this does come across as accusatory to me.
When the notion of a code of ethics was first mentioned on the forums in November I did have a look around the web and saw lots of very similar CoEs, manifestos, what ever you’d like to call them, including the one that Toushka has linked to from 2003.
Whilst I agree to some extent of there being a culture of silence in some aspects of the blogging world, I’m wondering if it is more to do with defamation than not wanting to rock the boat. Writing anything, whether we have one reader or one million readers, that can be seen as libel can have us lumped with a defamation suit – it is why I chose not to publicly name or link to the doctor who missed Tricky’s diagnosis despite a calling for “name and shame” in the comments.
I don’t think it has to do with defamation, because defamation has to be false information, in order for it to stick. Opinion is where defamation accusations are thrown around and rarely sticks, because opinion isn’t fact.
Provided we are all being truthful when we write things, then there is really no case for defamation, especially in a case like Tricky’s, where you were stating what happened. The doctor involved wouldn’t have liked it (they rarely do) but he wouldn’t have been able to sue.
I think you should proceed with more caution. I would start apologising if I were you, or you might have to sell the family farm.
I’m sorry, I haven’t said anything defamatory here that I can see?
Yes but your mother has and you are hosting her comment ie “If [redacted] I might have just looked at it and been able to ignore it for the fluff piece it is.”
“While all attempts will be made to keep the comment section calm and rational, each commenter is personally responsible for their own comment.”
That is in my About page, as part of my disclosure policy. I also can’t see how that comment is defamatory.
This comment has lead to a different path. I am making this comment as a general one re blogging/facebook pages.
NOT in relation to this post and its comments.
However, in the recent case of ACCC v Allergy Pathway Pty Ltd (No2) [2011] FCA 74 the Federal Court of Australia determined that liabiltiy for the publication of misleading, deceptive or defamatory words is not limited to the original author of the words. The short of the case is, that if you dont delete comments off a social media page that are illegal (defaming others) you can also be in trouble.
The Fed Court pretty much said that you have knowledge of the comments and the ability to remove them. If you don’t you are guilty.
I was aware of that, but thanks Claire. That disclaimer is less legal and more ‘please don’t complain to me if someone says something you don’t like’. I’m not sure how the comment that clklink is complaining about is defamatory.
I hardly think that stands as a legal disclaimer.
I am talking about Veronica’s About page. Just man up Veronica. Admit it was an attack designed to hurt Brenda.
No, it may not be a “legal disclaimer” but I am also not sure how that comment from Frogpondsrock is defamatory.
Ummm … although I think clklink is being a bit beforehand in their comment, I’m afraid that my knowledge of def law kind of suggests that the comment in question might (stress *might*) qualify.
Defamation is, as I’m sure everyone here knows well, the communication of a statement, expressly or implicitly stated to be factual, that casts a person, entity, nation etc in a negative light. For defamation to be made out, the negative implication must be shown, actual reputational damage should be demonstrable, and the statement should be shown to be false. (Contrary to popular belief, truth is not an unqualified defence to defamation charges, but demonstrating the falsity of the statement is usually key to actions in this area).
So if the person named in Kim’s comment was able to show:
– that the statement, presented as factual, that they had essentially plagiarised the BM was false;
– that the statement was negative in its effects;
– that the statement caused the named person to suffer actual reputational damage;
then, why would defamation not be made out?
Of course that is a fair few hoops to jump through and whether it would be worth the enormous angst of a def trial for the doubtless negligible (in real terms) award of damages is questionable. Just saying, that from my experience working with lawyers who specialised in this area (CAVEAT – I am not myself a lawyer!) that I’m not supremely confident that this statement could *not* qualify.
Is everyone else seeing the extreme irony here?
And to clarify – I believe there can be times to make accusations publicly, if you have exhausted the private options. However I would have said there are different pressures for keeping quiet on criticism vs accusations, which is why I commented that they are different. I saw that this was an exploration of why you felt pressured, and I felt the differences would be useful.
For me, the pressure against criticism is about pretending the web is a happy shiny place, along with a hefty dose of ‘not-worth-it-itis’ – many things I come across that I disagree with I simply choose not to read that blog, because if there was that big a mismatch there wouldn’t be much to interest me. And there are some things, including things I am heavily involved with, that I know I’m not going to change minds in a comment so why cause myself aggravation?
The pressure against accusations is quite different, because it is people’s reputations and potentially businesses at stake. The pressure is to be very sure, and think carefully about all the ramifications. Given some of the things I’ve seen, and I’m definitely not talking about this post, I actually think some are thrown around way too easily. And that is bitchiness.
But, having read some of the discussion I suspect maybe I’m too insulated, because I am seeing misrepresentation here.
I think it is very bad manners to come onto someone elses space and level accusations at them on a post that they have made clear is just a general discussion about critisim in general. The polite thing to do if you have concerns about something on a post is to contact the blog owner privatley and voice your concerns respectfully. Coming here to be nasty is just like turning up to someones house and being rude to them in person. You are in someone elses “house”on a blog and you should treat it with respect. It is ok to disagree, but be grown up about it and do it with grace and manners. Commenting with threats is just childish and rude and reflects poorly on you, the commentator.
Hope you ain’t talking to me, Mackenzie, because I’m pretty confident that I was neither levelling accusations / threats nor being nasty, just pointing out a (probably abstruse) point of defamation law.
In fact, though, I agree with your general point – as I stated in my first comment. Coming onto someone else’s blog simply in order to be rude / threatening *is* bad manners. Civil discourse should guide online communications just as much as IRL ones.
From looking at the threads, I’m pretty sure Mackenzie clicked Reply to a comment that wasn’t yours 🙂 And anyway, like you said, you weren’t levelling threats. Threaded comments are difficult sometimes!
I think you most certainly should say something if it is bothering you and I am glad you mentioned it here.
The posts are very similar (but who knows if it was intentional or not). There’s no problem in mentioning it – this is your blog and it your writing that we are discussing.
I think some people need to toughen up.
PS: I most certainly don’t think it’s accusatory in any way. You have given background and backed up what you’re saying. You don’t need to be a frigging genius to work out it’s very very similar.
Thanks Sharnee. I wasn’t trying to be accusatory, merely trying to sort out my own thoughts about the situation. Like you said, who knows if it was intentional and really, that’s the side issue to me feeling like I couldn’t mention it without being jumped all over.
It is so easy to tell the difference between those who can take criticism and those who can’t. The way you have handled yourself and spoken your thoughts – both in your post and in the comments – show that you are up for discussion and able to discuss criticisms and opinions in a level headed, rational manner. And I must add, the majority of your commenters are the same.
Being able to take a step back and see – truly see – were the criticisms have come from instead of jumping in and threatening someone, or turning it into a ‘ZOMG you suck’ match is, seemingly, a hard skill to master.
For the record – I don’t see your post as accusatory. I don’t know any of the background (and it seems to me that only you and any other persons involved actually know this level of detail), but from where I sit, you are just pointing out similarities and exploring your thoughts on the issue.
Voicing thoughts and criticisms is not something to be avoided – how else do we learn? Living in a world of cotton wool and only receiving positive feedback is damaging – although it may not feel like it at the time.
I think a few of the responses to this post actually prove my point above, which is sad I wasn’t trying to be accusatory, so I’m glad a lot of people don’t feel that I was.
I dislike that we can’t criticise and like you said, a world of cotton wool and positive feedback is not going to be in our best interests, all of the time.
interesting discussion. FWIW, I think criticism is essential so long as it is constructive. Criticism for the sake of being bitchy is not constructive nor is it useful. I don’t think Veronica is being critical or accusing in this post, just questioning her own online behaviour. This is something I question of myself often, most recently when having to do a review on something I didn’t particularly like.
Honesty may ‘offend’ others, if it is from the heart and not put out there to intentionally hurt then I don’t think anyone can be at fault. The person reading makes the choice in how they feel in response IMHO
Thank you, I think you got exactly what I was trying to convey.
I don’t think I’ll get into this, it seems to be evolving with a life of its own.
🙂
I am coming to this discussion very late but i have read all of the comments.
I think criticism can be a good thing and provoke wonderful growth, provided that it is constructive and respectful. I think we all need to decide as individuals and individual bloggers what we are comfortable in putting out there by way of criticism….and that will be a very personal decision for each person. In lots of ways I guess we each have our own internal code of ethics/manifesto.
With regard to the manifesto, I think that any person of good common sense, knowledge and writing skill would write very similarly if asked to write a code of ethics or bloggers manifesto. I think that a lot of people would come up with a similar dot point list of “ethical matters” like those expressed here by you Veronica and in the BM.
Quite possible I could be waffling now…I am exhausted!
Hurrah to that!
And I think that’s more my problem with the manifesto, I really don’t want to “sign” something that I already wrote as guidelines for myself. And yes, I know it’s completely voluntary, but the peer pressure to join in with what everyone else is doing can be intense sometimes.
I don`t know the whole story here, and I don`t claim to but I still think that each person`s blog is a place that is their own and each blogger has a right to write whatever they want. So, Veronica, I think the fact that you have got this off your chest can only be a good thing- not only because it is freeing for yourself but also so that other know how you are feeling/reacting.
I am all for lovey lovey support when it is needed and I think the blogging community is certainly a powerful one ( I haven`t had a lot to do with the Aussie community of late but from my own experience with the Japan mama`s blogging community) but just because we are all bloggers does not mean we have to agree all the time. Discussion, criticism, disdain- it is all part of life- coming online does not make that disappear.
I have signed the manifesto- and I hope nobody thinks I am been hypocritical here by writing this comment and I am not saying I agree with the post but I definitely stand by the fact that I think bloggers should be able to and should be free to write whatever they want.
I certainly don’t think you’re being hypocritical 🙂 I read lots of bloggers who don’t always agree, it doesn’t mean I have to stop reading, or commenting, or supporting. I’m glad I’ve worked some of this out of my system now and have been able to explore my thoughts around everything.
x
As usual with my reading I’m coming in late on this topic. Took a quick flick to your original post V and remembered it. Then tried to look at the Manifesto, but the site is down, so I can’t see what the fuss is about for myself. Ho-hum.
Blogging is such a personal thing for so many of us. It certainly is for me and I’ve taken the tack of not mentioning things I would not discuss with anyone face-to-face. There’s an old saying – don’t do/say anything you don’t want printed on the front page of the daily newspaper. If I am struggling with an issue, I write poetry; the abstractness of the the art allows me to write out the frustrations or pain. Much of it has been up at some time (and will be drip fed back in to the main blog posts, since I’ve decided that is one of the two foci of my blog), but some is simply too personal and way too harsh to be shared, at least in that immediacy of the writing.
I don’t really have rules, I just base my writing on the premise of simple good courtesy I link if I use an image or refer to another site; that way, I give credit to the originator and they hopefully get some traffic in return (well, a few clicks!). In editing and reading the GOFA’s work, I ask him how to prove what he is saying, although generally I know he has the source information and can present it if needed. Don’t say anything you can’t back up and if you your writing reflects that of others you have read, acknowledge it. It’s a simple courtesy and shows that you are not so egotistical that you think you are the only person on the planet to have had an idea. In academia it’s called referencing. Give credit where it is due.
The Manifesto has had server issues. Servers are frustrating when they’re down.
I used to write a lot of poetry, but I don’t anymore. Probably because I whine to Nathan instead of writing it out!
Thanks for chiming in.
Interesting to see an anonymous person on here arguing about ethics and making threats.
Definitely interesting.
The way I see it, your blog, your thoughts, if people don’t like it, they can click away.
I think the blogging community as a whole tries to be too “nice”, too “rainbows and butterflies” and if you voice an opinion different to the minority – watch out.
I hate how the “in-crowd” bloggers seem to have followers that will seemingly go on a search and kill mission if anyone dare disagree or call that “in-crowd” blogger out. In fact you have an example right here in this comments section.
clklink – IF and I am in NO way saying it was but IF you say what Veronica wrote (which by the way I’m not sure what EXACTLY she wrote that you are referring to) WAS an attack on Brenda – why do YOU feel the need to come here and defend Brenda’s honour? Can she not do that herself? IF in fact she even thinks the same as you?
Veronica there will ALWAYS be haters and people who disagree and that’s fine, the key is not to let them bother you. 🙂
I agree (anoymous BB), Brenda is a lovely and tough girl, she can defend her own honour if she feels she is being messed with. She obviously sees no reason to engage and defend, so perhaps clklink can leave it alone.
I think Brenda didn’t feel the need to engage, because while I was talking about the manifesto and why I am uncomfortable with it, I certainly was not attacking her personally, which wouldn’t be okay. Attack ideas, not people – (from Blog With Integrity – that I also didn’t sign, but like to quote from ;-))
I dislike that a lot – I first found it on the big US bloggers and decided that it wasn’t my cup of tea. Search and destroy has never been my favourite way of engaging.
And it wasn’t what I wrote that was a problem, apparently.
Brenda is aware of this thread and knows better than to engage. There is nothing that needs to be said. People are independent thinkers and she believes people can make up their own mind. Those who really know her would know it is not in her nature to aggravate things (eg the snarky comments after the ABC). She just wants the online bullying to finally stop.
Exactly, people can make up their own minds and this thread isn’t about Brenda, it’s about blogging, criticism and my personal issues with some things.
Also, online bullying? Really? Disagreeing is not bullying and I’m unaware of the snarky comments you are talking about.
If that’s what you say….
Look, I allow anonymous comments here because I am nice and because it’s my thing. I let people disagree with me and criticise me, but accusing me of bullying is not on. You can disagree with me all you like, but personal attacks are out and I reserve the right to edit/delete your comments as I see fit.
And frankly, Brenda has enough on her plate at the moment, without you trying to stir up trouble between us. I might not agree with the Bloggers Manifesto and we might have gone in different directions since ABC, but I harbour no ill feeling towards her.
Btw why didn’t you directly talk to Brenda about this issue? How come you didn’t file a copyright complaint/case against the creators of BM?
Because the BM hasn’t directly copied my post, it’s just very similar. I’m not accusing anyone of plaigarism here, this post was about discussing why criticising anything in the blogosphere gets you jumped on. It was a secondary point to the bits about criticism. But apparently, it’s a LIME POPSICLES thing and I’ve confused everyone away from the original post.
Lime popsicle reference: #60 http://abdpbt.com/imm-glossary/Key/6/
Veronica! Mah sistah! (Why, oh why, are all the good bloggers so far away from me?!? Does no one awesome live western Pennsylvania?!?)
Love that you linked to the T. Jane post about “community”. That post should be required reading for every mom blogger. The internet is huge and it is so much more than my blog and the 100 or so other mom friends that I follow and chat with on Twitter. That’s not my “community” any more than my lunch table was “high school”.
But back to criticism and the blogosphere…someone farther up the thread hit on a truth with the fact that blogs are more journal-ish and personal, thus we bloggers get touchy. I’m going to take that one step farther and say, “It’s up to the blogger to publish a topic that she is able to handle ALL comments on.”
Sometimes I have a post that I want to get out, but I fear an anonhole attack or just a normal reader giving me the stink eye. I TURN THE COMMENTS OFF. It allows me to use my blog as a journal and not hear the critics until I enable the comments again at a stronger place.
But I also realize that in publishing it, I’m inviting positive and negative comments. I’m starting a discussion. That’s the difference between writing a public blog versus scribbling on a Pretty Pretty Princess Diary and jamming it under my mattress.
Negative comments, criticism, and disagreements are good things! I wish more bloggers would moderate their comments LESS and let a few opposing opinions through. Nothing is more dull than a blog with adoring fans leaving nothing but “LOL! Love this! Totally agree!” snooze-fests in the comment thread.
I totally agree with your comment Jaci, I think that you are spot on in your assessment.
I also really like the fact that you think my daughter is awesome.
I am late to this, but I always am lately. Thats because I am often sick because I have Ehlers Danlos. So not rude in lateness just feeling well enough to say something!
I will be honest here, I have read nearly all the comments and my brain is full up. All I know is that, I don’t like the current climate with regard to threats of litigation when everyday people write that which is on their mind.
Are we all soon to write, I got up, ate my breakfast, rang my mother, played with the children, …… for fear that should we write an opinion in our own space, someone will throw their toys out of the pram and sue.
Then we go to read blogs and comment, how absolutely wonderful, I love your blog, splendid. Conversationally people debate all the time, politicians do it, everyone does it. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we don’t.
Perhaps for a moment if we were to view the blogosphere as the equivalent of conversations around the dinner table to which are invited a variety of people, then grown ups can agree to disagree? Then move on to the next course. After the dinner party, one may like one person more than another perhaps, but at the next supper, perhaps one finds out more about a person and changes ones mind because the depth of conversation has enabled a friendship or not to develop.
If one cannot comment, or talk honestly in a blog then whats the point? The reason Veronica is such a good blogger in my opinion is because her ego is not gotten too big. In my opinion she writes with honesty and integrity. I think what I am trying to say is as blogs are open to all, then healthy debate is great. If that is perceived as criticism then perhaps ego’s get in the way. The blogosphere is developing each day and I just don’t want it to become so politically correct that its boring. The world is full of brilliantly exciting intelligent people, some of whom chose to blog. Let’s embrace it? I say bring it on, critisice (which I cannot spell) away, or replace that word which I cannot spell with the term healthy debate, would that help? It makes the evolution of blogging more natural, real and interesting. Don’t lets kill it because everyone is afraid they may face a legal situation for goodness sake. The world is already too full of war and fighting. Let’s enjoy all of this, of which we are so fortunate to be able to participate in and put it in its place, just another way of socialising. As my daughter says … Just Chill.
I’m not sure I have anything new to add to this conversation but will give it a go. I think it’s both interesting and disappointing that a post the difficulties with criticism (wheter you read it as a comment or attack) is responded to in a way that just reinforces the point. I also have little respect for people who disagree behind a anon comment when everyone else is contributing publicly.
When I first read this it didn’t occur to me that it was accustatory. I read it as an honest post, asking some hard questions that was likely to make people uncomfortable.
In terms of the BM, I’m not sure how much to say about that here because in many ways it’s not what this is about. I think the only thing I will say is that a BM can be a useful tool however it can also be a badge to hide behind (ie. I can do what I want because I say I have abscribed to some sort of code) whether that’s a conscious thing or otherwise. I’m of the opinion that words are easy, actions are hard so for me it’s the actions not the promise that matter. Does that make sense?
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