Sometimes it seems that Mummybloggers have a culture of silence.
We don’t make waves, we don’t swim against the tide and we certainly don’t write controversial things (unless they involve circumcision, or sexuality, or whether to let your child cry it out.)
A community that sits in silence and refuses to acknowledge things that are rotten inside it is not a good community. We should not be scared to disagree with other bloggers. We should not sit in silence to avoid making waves.
Seriously people, what kind of community encourages this sort of passive aggressive silence?
‘Don’t feed the trolls, don’t engage, delete the comments’ – these are lines spoken, not about drive by trollings but about people who may not have the same opinions you do.
I disagree with Mrs C on a lot of issues, but I still adore her. She disagrees with me, but still reads and adds to the conversation here. It’s not decent behaviour to want to silence someone that doesn’t spend all their time cheerleading your blog.
I keep going on and on and on about this, but it seems no one listens. I want open discussion. I want someone to be able to say ‘I disagree with you’ or ‘I think you handled this badly’, or ‘[big name blogger] sent me photos of his dick’ without fear of repercussions from the community, of being called a troll.
I am sick of the silence surrounding mummyblogging, the silence that is encouraged, lest we upset someone who is bigger than us. Seriously internet, I don’t want people calling me nasty names (again) anymore than the next person, but I cannot sit and watch things happen without wondering why the fuck no one speaks up.
And I know this won’t make me popular and I am okay with that.
Because if ever the lines are drawn, I will take honesty over popularity any day.
***
Edited: A BIG EDIT.
Whenever I start to second guess myself and my writing, I know that I haven’t been clear enough about what I was trying to say.
Unfortunately, I can’t normally tell what people will take away from a post like this until comments start to come in. Sometimes I leave it and spend all my time clarifying my points, however, on this issue, constant clarifycations would be taking away from the post.
It was never meant to be a conversation about one particular blogger and post and what she should have done better. There is no could have, should have, would have intended.
Instead, I want people to read what others are writing and not feel that they need to get passive aggressive about it. This could just be my own personal bug bear coming through, having been on the end of passive aggressive comments one too many times.
This post has been edited to remove any discussion of a particular event that happened in the US mOmmyblogosphere, because I don’t want to spend all day making sure that people know I wasn’t attacking her and was instead, talking about the culture of silence we have here on the whole.
If you want to know what you missed, email me, I’ll fill you in.
Some of the original comments may appear to referring to things that aren’t here anymore. That’s okay, I’m not going to edit or remove them.
Instead, we’ll have a discussion on silence and why we feel we ought to not speak up in some situations.
I have not been aware of any of the penis flashing. (My only comment on that would be that any bloke that flashes his dick at unsuspecting folk is a sad old git – online or in real life, it is just quite pathetic.)
The silence thing though – sometimes people chose to ignore, not just for fear of becoming “unpopular” but because they simply do not want to invest time or, more importantly, emotional energy, into an issue?
I weigh up, frequently, which issues are worth my energy. In real life, and online as a blogger, I have to chose my battles, else my sanity would, quite literally, fail.
There are issues and niggles that I will not speak up about because I refuse to invest my time or energy in dramas that are not productive.
Lazy? Perhaps. Self preservation? Yes. Selfish? Possibly. Focusing on the things that make me happy rather than sad and knackered? Yes.
I see your point entirely and I know I walk away from a lot of things in blogging because I don’t have the energy.
I guess I’m not talking about the posts where you disagree so badly that it makes your head pop, but the posts from a blogger you mostly like and respect, that you just happen to disagree with and you’d like a discussion on it.
It’s a hard one, for sure. I have had that situation. Then it becomes a juggle, in my head, of “do I want to air the dirty laundry in public” or take it offline.
I did once comment in on a blog debarcle that grossly offended my value set. I was polite but firm in my constructive criticism. My comment hit home, I suspect, as it was ignored (whilst others were fuel to a polluting fire.). I then approached her offline, to no avail. The blogger then chose to unfollow me. (I now realise her overall style and aspirations were a little too “try hard” for me, as was her prose. A lesson learned, for me, I suspect, from that one. The sycophants & the passive aggressive will always get more airtime.)
You remind me of a young French girl I used to know. Joan something or other. I think she met a fiery end. But my point is that silence isn’t always a good thing young human, Keep on speaking up about the things that matter to you and you will go a long way. The journey might not always be a pleasant one but it will certainly be interesting.
Thanks very much ‘God’.
Less of the quotation marks and more of the AWE thank you lassie.
Ah Veronica, you should meet the GOFA. In fact, he will name and shame the individual if you like. Seems you are both warriors!
Name him if you wish. Those who wish to support you will do so. The daddy-blogger himself may become more aggressive and then you have set in motion the source of untold harassment from multiple corners from a very misshapen and opinionated world. And that, dear Veronica, is something the GOFA knows a lot about from his own advocacy work. It never, ever ends. Choose your fights wisely, for you only have so much in the way of resources. If this a fight worth expending time and energy on, then go for it.
I ended up editing the post, so as to not reference the actual drama and change the conversation from silencing, to bagging out a particular situation.
This particular drama has just highlighted the culture of silence that Mummyblogging exists in. A tech blogger wouldn’t be afraid that he would get flamed for telling another tech blogger that ‘While I accept your point of view, do you know it’s better if you actually do a-b-c?’
I agree Veronica. Sometimes though, that is easier said than done.
I have had the internal conversation with myself recently about growing a backbone and being more of a stand-up person (ironically, because of the post that you had about how things on the internet can be taken incorrectly) I wanted to say something but didn’t because I didn’t want to offer myself up for their nastiness.
Sometimes the internet can be a scary place.
Kudos to you. I admire you for your honesty.
I did give people the out though, knowing that those particular dissenters were loud and vicious and very quick with their email-y fingers. So I absolutely don’t blame you.
I hear what you are saying (although the penis photos were news to me) – and applaud your go-get-’em attitude.
I guess for an older and somewhat more world-weary soul as myself (gosh – don’t I sound pathetic?) – who has made some pretty full on stands over the years and coped the resulting backlash – I tend to lean these days towards what Lucy says:
“I weigh up, frequently, which issues are worth my energy. In real life, and online as a blogger, I have to chose my battles, else my sanity would, quite literally, fail.
There are issues and niggles that I will not speak up about because I refuse to invest my time or energy in dramas that are not productive.”
Doesn’t mean that the sleeping dragon can’t be woken again though……..
I think that’s the absolutely correct thing to do. I think that this particular situation in the blogosphere has just highlighted things I see happening everywhere.
I don’t want flame wars in comments, I want respectful and open discussion from different view points to me. I want to not be scared to disagree with a few of the big name mOmmy bloggers – not yell at them, or troll them, but to respectfully disagree and put across my points, without feeling like I would end up being attacked for that.
The actual situation is just a soap box really and not the entire point.
Not sure if you read Heather’s blog Veronica but she wrote something recently about bloggers and their passive aggressive ways. It was an interesting read and the comments were too – http://www.notefromlapland.com/2010/09/if-you-want-to-slag-me-off.html
I don’t know where I stand on this to be honest. I always seem to miss the scandals, if I knew of this happening to friends, then I am pretty sure I would have to do soemthing as I hate it think of people trying to use their ‘power’ in bad ways!
Go girl, you sort the blogging world out! Mich x
Heather’s post is brilliant – and I think that is what is shitting me, the passive aggressive ‘I’m not going to name them’ posts and comments about the place.
The person in question is my friend. Not Danny, obviously.
There were many more facets to the situation, not to mention legal ramifications.
I love you girl, but this one we will have to agree to disagree.
See? Illustrating my point perfectly. This is what I want more of, agreeing to disagree.
Thanks Kel, I know there were lots of sides to the story. I think it is a useful thing to be talking about so it hopefully doesn’t happen to anyone again – and so if it does, she doesn’t feel silenced or like ignoring is her only option.
You made me think about the situation and my post, and I’ve edited it to reflect that. I want the conversation to be about silence in the community as a whole (as previous posts of mine have said) and not just this particular situation. She handled it how she handled it and that was obviously the best way for her. I might not agree, but I can respect that.
xx
Respectful agreeing to disagree? TOTALLY hear you on that one.
Yes, that’s what I want more of.
I’m second guessing talking about the actual situation that sparked my post, because like Kel said, there are lots of things at play and I don’t want the message to get lost in amongst the actual drama that occured.
When I think about disagreeing with a blogger with a big following, I actually think less about the blogger themselves and more about their (at times) fanatical fan base who are certainly capable of annoying you into silence if nothing else.
Yes, that’s true too. Although I’m sure my last large group of dissenters will argue that that’s what happened here earlier in the month. But they also weren’t disagreeing with me, they were being threatening and my friends stood up for me.
It’s a fine fine line.
I think there’s a big difference too between disagreeing with someone respectfully and in context and following people all over the place just to be as unpleasant as possible.
Ok, I have no idea about the Mom blogger debacle that you’re talking about but I do love this post!
I think there is absolutely nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree. A little while back I did a post about prochoice, and there were those who agreed with my thoughts and there were those who didn’t. I applaud the girls who didn’t because they tactfully shared their opinion *without* attacking mine.
9 times out of 10, if you agree to disagree with grace and tact then there’s no problem. It’s such a shame though that so many of us (at times, myself included) feel the need to be passive aggressive and it’s a real shame that someone who simply has a different opinion can be perceived as a troll or a troublemaker …
It’s why I edited the post, because we were getting caught up in one particular drama, when I wanted to discuss differing opinions.
I agree with you, we can disagree, without resorting to personal attacks and passive aggressive.
I had written a really good comment but it vanished. This comment will never equal the glory that was the previous comment.
So I will just sit here in the back row and quietly applaud you. Silence is never good, though we all choose to be silent at various times for various reasons.
Open and honest discussion about any number of things should always be encouraged.
I am totally with you on the agree to disagree thing. For eg, some people choose to vaccinate their kids, some don’t. Although I don’t agree with not vaccinating, it doesn’t mean I respect the person any less. It’s their choice. Same with breastfeeding vs bottle feeding. People need to be more willing to accept that everyone will not have the same opinion, and that it’s OK. Besides, think how boring life would be if we all just agreed with each other all the time!
When it IS a question of opinion, yes, absolutely. However, some behaviours go beyond well opinion and into the realms of illegality / unethical behaviour. I personally have no difficulty in declining to agree to disagree in those cases.
I agree for the most part, but I’m not sure that I would always equate silence (or partial disclosure) to passive-aggressiveness. It’s a hard line to walk, as so many women are silenced in ways that are not of their choosing, but part of being a feminist (and a decent human being) has to be according others the right to BE silent, if that it what they choose for their own reasons. Self-protection isn’t an invalid consideration, especially if a person is already running low on teaspoons due to other life issues.
I guess what I’m saying is that if you are the victim of harassing behaviour, you don’t *owe* anybody outside the situation a particular form of response. You are not morally obligated to speak up, or speak out, or name names.
My 0.02 worth only, naturally.
No, I agree, silence, or partial disclosure is not always passive aggressive – but sometimes it is and that raises the hair on the back of my neck.
(Former Mrs. C… changed recently because there are about 50 million Mrs. Cs blogging out there lol)
Veronica, thank you for the link and the kind words.
I was a bit worried for a sec there with references to p*nis pictures and mommyblogging and drama. I was reading this over and going, “OH NO… what stupid thing have I done this time??” But while I think I can rest pretty easy on the picture account in any event, *whatever* is going on, I don’t envy you the drama.
I hope it gets better soon.
No, you haven’t done anything! LOL. But you are a perfect example of being able to have different opinions and still be friends.
I opened the post (and read it) when I first got to work this morning and then came back to it now – so I read both the original and this copy.
I had no idea about that other stuff going on! Goodness!
I have no problem with being honest (when I have time to form an opinion that is) but I have found that there has been some overreaction on a few things I have said once or twice that annoyed me greatly. Sometimes we all need to remember to step away from the computer. Easier said than done! 😉
I agree 100% with you when you say we shouldn’t be afraid to disagree – it often is hard however because ‘popular’ people usually have an ‘army’ of fans who will stick up for them without often thinking about what is actually being said except the precious blogger they love is under negative fire. Which makes no sense to me since I have my own mind and like to form my own opinions 🙂
I agree though – honestly is more important that popularity.
xx
Yes, the army of fans are often more scary than the original blogger – who, when we get right down to it, is often just another sleepless mother.
I think there is also the negative impact to your blog that goes with disagreeing openly with ‘big’ bloggers – it’s a black list of sorts.
For me I apply the same rules as real life!
I read a few blogs but I have been reading them for a while – I build a “relationship” of sorts with that person and if I feel my argument/disagreement will be heard I voice it!
I had been passed over/ignored/dismissed – so I am not like to post a comment where I disagree that is one in 70 posts and the blogger doesnt have a cooking clue who I am. I will disagree with you or another blogger I have some sort of relationship with – purely because I know it will be heard and thought about.
Also I have found many of the bloggers you have issues with do tend to blog FOR the responses. They post content that WILL get traffic. It happened in the single mom blog world I started reading – its why I very quickly pulled away from it. The issues arent always what they would choose to write about but what pulls in the people and NOTHING pulls in people like a good old fight and I have no interest in that!
I think I do the same. If I have a relationship with a blogger and know that they’ll ‘get’ what I mean, I will speak my mind in their comments and know that they’ll understand where I’m coming from. Someone who doesn’t know me quite as well, I may just click away.
I’m not sure how to say what I want to say, but I’ll give it a go.
Agreeing or disagreeing with someone, for me, depends on the post mostly. If there’s a point or two I disagree on, I might say something, or I might not, after reading the rest of the comments. If there appears to be an army of rabid fans that are all agreeing with him/her, then I’ll just click away, and often enough won’t go back to that blog, at least for a while. If the comments are divided and the commenters seem to be making good points, whether agreeing or not, I’ll add my points. I’ve no wish to be attacked in the comments or on my own blog for simply disagreeing with someone’s point of view, so I do stay quiet a lot. If it’s a blog I’ve been to a lot and really like the blogger, I usually speak up, but I’ll try to make my comment acceptable by injecting a little humor or by stating my point and saying that I know I’ll be disagreed with and that’s okay with me, just that everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
I agree with you and I comment in much the same fashion. If I’m disagreeing, I want the person to think about my words and take my viewpoint seriously, not bag me out as a troll and send negative comments/ers my way.
In theory of course we should be able to respectfully disagree. In reality though I tend to steer clear… mostly b/c am a bit of a wuss. There are many “out there” who love nothing more than a good argument (which I don’t), also there is the risk that the written word can be misconstrued to be less respectful than it was intended. So if I read a post about things I disagree with, I tend to think “to each their own” and leave it.
I’ve noticed that the good old-fashioned trolling is on the decline. I think people simply realized that it wasn’t so clever after all. I define trolling as an attempt to draw someone into a frivolous argument. For example, if I say “All men drink too much,” I’m using a hyperbole. But a troll would take issue as though I meant “All” literally. But I just don’t see much of that anymore.
hmmm
You know I always hope that people make up their own minds about any issue… that’s what they are for after all.
I know though that I tend to try to avoid drama and dissent because blogging is my space to clear my head and get away from that shite. But yeah, we shouldn’t be scared into silence by the threat of trolls or anything else.
I agree with you.
I do have to say I allow most all comments(good or bad) that are posted to my blog, but then I don’t get a lot of them so yeah. Honesty is best even if that means you disagree with someone. I do have to say I didn’t post a comment of someone saying that my grammar sucked because I know it does and it was said in a semi hurtful way and well I just don’t want that kind of comment on my blog, even though the person was being honest the post had nothing to do with my grammar and I felt it was an inappropriate comment for the subject of the post. Had I wanted help on my grammar it would have been different if it had been said nicer, which is the only time I will not post disagreeing comments, that is when the are hurtful or ugly other wise disagree if you want you can have your opinion if you want.
*they are hurtful. see there, though that is more of a typo then a grammar mistake
This is definitely not a Mummy blogging issue. Generally I can’t stand the ‘I need to write about this but I’m not going to mention any names’ posts – If it’s public, say it but if it’s private, keep it private! But I might change my mind after watching a couple of fights unfold in another blogging community. There people are openly attacking on each other’s blogs, Facebook, Twitter, forums etc so a bit of passive aggression might be a nice break.
My response is generally to just go away. If I had a relationship with someone and felt I was going to be able to discuss it with them I’d try, but otherwise the internet is big enough that there is someone else saying the same things in a style I enjoy/appreciate more. There’s only one or two big blogs I read regularly in a different area, otherwise I tend to only read posts that interest me. I’ve tried some of the big bloggers and don’t like the way their commenters hunt in packs, they’re not so brilliant that it’s worth sticking around.
Often the big bloggers are only big because of timing, or marketing, or connections, it doesn’t necessarily mean they are the most brilliant writers or have the most thought provoking ideas. There are enough blogs out there to find ones I’m comfortable with by sampling lots. Honestly, if I’m scared someone (or their followers) is going to give me a hard time for disagreeing with them, why would I care enough about their opinion to try to change it?
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